By John Mitchell on Monday, December 31, 2007 at 3:46 PM

Hi Jeff,
I think there is an additional piece to consider which you touched on. In general, DNN modules are only parts of an application. I know there are some modules which are close to complete applications by themselves, but they still run on the DNN framework. Some companies combine many of these components to make a total solution for a customer and I think these companies price out their time into the total solution. The reason I bring this up is because the comparisson to Community Server enterprise is not really fair with individual modules. To be more fair, a Community Server Enterprise license should only be compared to a total DotNetNuke solution which should also include support after the sale. That way the end user should be returning to the person they paid to bring together a total solution who in turn may or may not need support from the commercial module developer. If the solution developer is any good they will need much less support.
The difference with this in the DNN community is that we have evolved the DNN ecosystem into a vast Do-It-Yourself mentality. That is not all bad either, but it brings with it a lot of people who demand more for less, and they want it to work in their own unique situations.
I don't think modules are too cheap, and I think even if they are only $50 a customer still has the right to expect a lot out of them. Consider going to Radio Shack and buying some seperate peices to build your own robot. Would you expect every peice to perform it's function as advertised only if it costs over $200, or would you expect to get a lot out of a particular component even if it only cost $20?
As commercial module developers we should be expected to deliver more for less, and make our money to stay in business on volume. If we spend time supporting our products then it will in turn make our products more valuable to more users. Don't get me wrong. The customers should not demand that the product do something that it was not intended to do unless they are willing to pay a premium for custom work, but if we create great modules that perform above most people's expectations then we can afford to sell them for less money.

 By Jeff Waters on Monday, December 31, 2007 at 4:21 PM

Great point, John. You would need to compare a CS based solution to a full blown DNN website + all apples to apples modules with a support contract from the developer. Agreed. But, the Telligent Enterprise CS product itself is $20k. Then there will be at least $20k consulting fees on top of that from the contractor. I doubt that many with the typical DNN mindset (ie, people who think $100 is an expensive module) would think to quote a $50-$100k project.

Also, the magnitudes of your robot example are a bit off in my mind. Instead of building a robot, let's say I'm building a car. Maybe I look around and see that most rebuilt engines cost $2k. But, suddenly I see one for $20 and decide to use it. No, I don't have much expectation that it's going to work as well as a $2k solution. And, if it doesn't, I'm not going to blame anyone but myself.

Jeff

 By Joe Brinkman on Monday, December 31, 2007 at 4:27 PM

Jeff... I agree with you to a degree. I do believe that module developers should feel comfortable charging a price that allows them to fully support their product. To me this means charging a price that takes into account the cost of development, documentation and support.

Often I see vendors who do not provide much support or substandard documentation. In many cases, when I discuss this with the vendor, it comes down to one of economics.

Those who were at the OpenForce panel discussion on "The Road Ahead" heard many people in the audience express the desire to see vendors raise their prices to better enable them to offer expanded support and documentation. I think some vendors are hesitant to raise prices since there are not many higher priced products in the market. That is slowly changing and I hope to see this trend accelerate in the coming year.

 By John Mitchell on Monday, December 31, 2007 at 5:00 PM

My example of the robot components was to show that products can cost less when they are mass produced. I see your point too, but no one is going to find a brand-new engine for $20 that is comparable as advertised to a $2K engine.

Another example which is where module development and/or SAAS is headed in my opinion would be to compare it to a hit song or a movie.
If you work really hard and produce something that a lot of people love, then you do not need to charge as much.

Another thing to consider is that, as you correctly pointed out, Community Server is in a whole different market than most commercial module developers, or any commercial component developer for that matter.

Since module developers have to compete in a global economy it naturally drives the price down. Again, I don't think that is a bad thing, and if companies that build commercial solutions for DNN are able to differentiate themselves as Enterprise solution providers then they can get higher prices, but as a rule they'll have less market. Which is what they want if they are in that space.

By the way, there is also a component development market springing up around Community Server. And I think you will find that market adjusts itself just like DNN's does.

As Jack pointed out in the other thread, the free market will adjust itself.

 By Jeff Waters on Monday, December 31, 2007 at 8:39 PM

Thanks Joe, that's good to hear. As some others have commented, I too have seen some piss poor DNN modules out there in the range of $10-20 with no support or documentation and little functionality.

On the other hand, I see some marvelous products out there like UltraVideoGallery selling for $85. Steve Rosenbaum of Magnify.net is creating a video (re)sharing service and making all kinds of noise in the media. Magnify.net could mostly be reproduced out of the box with UVG. Magnify.net is a company being discussed in the mainstream tech media and could certainly go out and secure VC funding. Yet, here we have DNN being free and UVG costing $85.

Another example is Active Forums. Compare their $200 offering to that of Jive Forums. Yikes!

Maybe its my imagination, but I sense this aura of "crunchy idealism" surrounding the DNN community. I'm just suggesting everyone step back from our little niche and make sure this platform is pushing towards the markets with the real $$.

-Jeff

 By Mitchel Sellers on Tuesday, January 01, 2008 at 12:30 PM

Jeff,

I find this posting very interesting and the comments even more interesting.

I am one of those "small" software development firms that you speak of, running out of my home. And I would say that your comments are very stereotypical of the module developers that are out there in the market today. I have recently adjusted my prices to be a bit more expensive, but I have not changed a single thing about how I do business. I still provide full support for all custom projects, as well as I still provide FREE modules that I think are good for the community.

I see this as another area where a few of the bad apples in the world have really "hurt" the image for those of us that are legitimate and VERY dedicated to the services that we provide.

I also see that there is a DIFFERENCE between custom modules, custom solutions, and off the shelf software packages. I liken this to an individual that will either go with a $30 software program to help them with file backups, or a person that spends $3,000 having something custom written. So really I agree with John Mitchell that for the most part I don't think packaged solutions are underpriced....are custom development services a bit cheaper than maybe they should be? I don't know I think that truly depends on WHO you are marketing towards.

I do agree that documentation and other items are needed, but I would also say that DotNetNuke as a CORE team must also step in line and create the needed documentation for DNN. When working with clients the lack of DNN documentation, or updated DNN documentation is more of a concern than ANY documentation for a module.

 By Jeff Waters on Tuesday, January 01, 2008 at 12:48 PM

Thanks Mitchel. Great to hear form someone in the position to do something about this! I think maybe I'm leaning more to your way of thinking now. If the module truly is a COTS commodity, and there really is a big enough market that can live without much 1-on-1 style support, then what I see as cheap pricing is justified.

If on the other hand, the the market for these products at $30-$100 strangles developers and keeps them from growing, then pricing needs to trend upward to keep the platform alive.

In terms of my interest in DNN, I represent a person (me) not a big company. So, I'm thrilled that I can still buy good modules for under $100. But, I wonder if failing to upgrade the overall DNN community's sense of "fair price" threshold could lead to its demise?

 By Dan on Wednesday, January 02, 2008 at 9:09 AM

You sense "crunchy idealism" ...

If your motivation is to pay more for (the same) modules, so that you can, in turn, charge more for (the same) deliverables... I sense something else.

 By Jeff Waters on Wednesday, January 02, 2008 at 9:38 AM

Not sure I follow... but, that "if" doesn't accurately describe my thinking.

The products need to be improved. The services also need to be improved. And, both need to be sold with pricing models that allow for flourishing business with solid technical support and even more innovative development.

Also, if the marketplace is scared off by the pennies pricing model (and perhaps rightly so given the available tech support and risky state of developer longevity) and business that could easily be going to DNN solutions is going elsewhere, than it behooves the community to elevate.

 By Mitchel Sellers on Wednesday, January 02, 2008 at 10:42 AM

Jeff,

I think you have really hit on the point that I was trying to make. For the packaged modules that I release, I don't have to charge a lot to make a good profit on it as I have minimal overhead and other business expenses.

I would say that there are poeple out there charging in the $10-100 range that really need to up their support, but I will also say that we do have quite a few developers like myself that for no cost provide support for our modules AND for other modules and DNN as a whole. John Mitchell is one of the others that come to mind.

I personally find that in my business, customer support, technical assistance, and overall being there to answer quests even though time consuming at times is the best thing I can do for my business. Having a postive face to the community is something that I think many developers should focus more on.

I find that having a place such as SnowCovered for the sales of modules end up helping promote a faceless approach for software developers since they don't have to build/maintain the site. I find that if you have a company that runs their own sales site that you will have a much more dedicated, involved team.

I will agree that pricing is something that is very hard to set and very hard to understand. Many organizations are amazingly suprised that DotNetNuke itself if free, so there are typically MANY changes of mind that must occur. Pricing for DotNetNuke modules and services is something that I struggle with all the time. As you mentioned many individuals judge a developer not on their skills or experience but on the price that they pay. Many people think that when it comes to custom software solutions that it is simply a matter of how much you pay that sets apart the competition.

I wish that the mindset of companies would change, but I don't see that happening in the near future. I see this as the biggest struggle holding back smaller software firms from becoming larger. When starting out you always have to start with smaller projects, and then move on to bigger ones. But with that you have to make transitions in pricing and other thought processes to meet the "expectations of cost" for the larger projects.

 By Adam Kirkbride on Wednesday, January 09, 2008 at 2:15 AM

I would like to say a few things from a website design business point of view that has purchases many modules from snowcovered, maketplace & developers websites.

First of all I would like to say that most of the module developers that I have ever dealt with as most of them have been great to deal with.
To give you an example Chad from Datasprings (http://www.datasprings.com) helped me fix a bug via a confrence (gomeeting) this morning (well yeterday in Chads time!). Chad has also made some great changes that he thought all his clients would benifit from at no charge (I must admit I did pay a second time for the module to thank him for his great work).

Scott from Ventrian (http://www.ventrian.com/) has some of the best modules I have seen & his pricing stucture I am sure has got alot of people interested & using DNN. Scott’s modules are great to get any newbie interested in running their own website design business.

Coming from as asp (classic) & php background I am not sure if I ever need to go down the ASP.NET track if modules were to become a wholesale type of product. Maybe from a business point of view I can spend my time selling websites (which is what a website design bisinesses needs to do to pay the bills) instead of programming websites. So in my point of view I am able to use DNN in more projects as I have more marketing time which inturn is going help DNN grow alot faster. If modules were too expensive & we had to do everything ourselves then we would not be able spend the time that we currently do promoting, supporting & training our clients on how to use DNN & some of its advanced funcionallity.

MODULES SHOULD NOT BE A RETAIL PRODUCT – THEY NEED TO BE TRANSFORMED INTO WHOLESALE PRODUCTS

If you are a business minded website design company, mudules are considered to be a wholesale item that we can mark up (charge our clients for installation & support). Why are module developers branding their modules so hard so that our clients can find out who our wholsalers are. If you want DNN to grow leave it & it’s modules as unbranded as possible. The reseller systems that are currently in place have not been setup like a “wholesale” business should.

Do you really want that guy who is struggling to find how to login into his new website that he just purchased from me to contact you? These people are “NORMAL” people who stuugle to even use the internet. Why would you want them to contact you when their website crashes or if they are they can’t do something?

I washed an episode of the appretince once (Yes, Donald Trump..) and the competing teams were selling water. One team was targeting retails outlets like shops & night clubs. The other team got smart & said “hey instead instead of targeting retail outlets lets see if we can crack the wholesale market” (don’t quote me on that..lol). Anyway the point being the the team that was selling to the retail outlets sold a bit of Trumps water, but the team that wanted to sell it more at a wholesale level did a deal with a distributor and sold him pallets at a time & killed their competiotors.

Why doesn’t DNN & module developers relize that if you keep it cheap, keep it unbranded by default (hint..hint.. active forums, onyaktech etc), make at easy to use (sorry onyaktech, I made need to call you as your helpdesk user inerface just blows me & my clients away) & standards compliant.. Us website guys (& gals) will promote & sell your products to our 1000’s of customers for you & almost elimate support problems as we become experts in your products aswell. We are basically your business parntners who you work with so you do not have answer the same question 1000’s of time & chase around to sell, market & explain your products to “NORMAL” people.

If you keep your modules cheap & unbranded you will attract alot more business partners to sell & promote your products for you!

I will tell you one last thing, if you want to push DNN lose all the copyright crap on the help area of the DNN website & get series about making this your number one prioprty! Then give it us the right to use “UNBRANDED HELP” as a tool that we can use to make you the fastest growing content management system in the world!

If it is easy to use then people will use it (UNBRANDED video help would make DNN sell itself to business partners).

 By Mitchel Sellers on Wednesday, January 09, 2008 at 10:45 AM

Adam,

You provide a vew very interesting points, however, I understand why module developers continue to leave branding on their modules. If we as developers created our modules and never made any references to out companies, not even in the help text for example we would not have any way to really help expand the products. I think that people like yourself assembling sites and providing support for people is great, but there are times where clients need to cut the middle man.

The other part is that in about 90% of the modules that I have worked with, you could remove all branding if you wanted. Help text can be modified via the Language Editor, and you can change any needed text in the "descriptions" that are contained inside the Module Definitions portion of your DNN installations.

I agree that providing modules that can be easily tailored to a clients needs using templatles and other informaiton is important, but I don't see how removing all branding/company references is good as a whole. Possibly if clients are producing two separate versions of a module it could be justified.

 By Jeff Waters on Wednesday, January 09, 2008 at 1:22 PM

Adam,
You bring up some good points. Appreciate the candor and new opinion.

It's been great to see the discussion take a life of its own both here and over on the "DNN Chat About It" forum. I have noticed people in both places who have an odd view of money, pricing, and markets, though. (Not saying you are guilty of this next bit, but you did bring up module price) It almost seems like there is a socialist view in the community. That, somehow, the amount of money module developers can make should only be limited to their costs plus a small markup for profit.

That is absurd and damaging in my mind. Module pricing should have no dependence on developer costs or profits right now. None of these modules are commodity products. The best of them solve a specific problem that few if any other products solve. The price should be based on the value the module can bring to the website builder (AKA DNN module integrator?) and the end-buyer of the website.

If we have this idealism that a module developer shouldn't charge $1000 for a module when they could charge $20 and still pay the rent, we're not going to see major quality improvements that are attractive to real businesses who are at the end of the revenue chain.

At a minimum, I would want a 1-man-band-module-developer to be able to make $100k/year (per USD and assuming the US residence... translate that equivalently to other countries). He has no health benefits, so $100k isn't all that much, but will afford a reasonable quality of life. He's gotta sell 10,000 $10 modules per year to do that. Actually, probably double that if he's selling through Snowcovered. Hmmm. I don't see it.

So, a more achievable goal is 1,000 modules at $100. (Or 2,000 modules through snowcovered).

Now, that level of income just ensures he'll be able to stay in business and be the longterm partner that I need. If he can do 10x or 100x better than that in revenue, more power to him! That just means he'll have more capital to invest in a bigger development team and focused technical support. Or, if he just wants to buy an island somewhere, that's his call. I'm happy for him.

As to your point of taking the brunt of support calls as the middleman... that sounds nice, but I bet is unlikely for companies that have at least 1 "web person" on the inside that you interface with. Maybe the module developers out there can chime in with some kind of guess at how many calls they get from their customers or from their customers' customers?

As for branding, I think it's like anything else. If you're getting a full-on wonderfull forum module (ActiveForums) for $200, I don't see how you can complain about the little ActiveModules logo at the bottom. What is an active online community worth to a business that previously had none? Maybe you aren't charging enough for that as an integrator?

It's like Windows LiveMail. Free (with a little advertising) or fully customized and ad-free if you upgrade to the paid version.

What if we weren't choking DNN developers and keeping them working from the basement at home? What if they developed modules that had some branding that non-geeks recognized and placed value on? What if your ability to integrate those modules actually helped your marketing and sales efforts?

I just can't believe the module developers are doing well right now. Given the current pricing, they have a TON of licenses to sell just to make ends meet. Without massively increasing pricing, I think it's impossible for them to eleminate the only real marketing vehicle available to them.

 By Adam Kirkbride on Thursday, January 10, 2008 at 3:49 AM

Michael great point about expanding your products & the need for feedback. Maybe every developer should have a link to them in the help area of the module, that sounds OK & might encourge module devolpers take advantage of DNN’s built in help feature to create less support enquires for themselves at the same time  We also then we don’t have to spend our time removing something that just looks out of place on our freshly designed site (do we all really want do go do that track every time we roll out a website?). The developer could have a standard place in the help area to promote their products to anyone wishing to purshase them & setup them up.

I have to admit $200 for active forums is a great price for a great product followed by great support. Alot of people out there may never work out that, what they call a message board we call a forum. If every one worked together to support this developer he would be able to buy his only island or choose to invest his money in his business to make his product even better 

I know if I were a dedicated module devoper or a dedicated skin designer or a dedicated page copyrighter/seo expert etc.. I would be marketing my products to my business partners who I know that when I deal with 1 project manager/ business parner /middleman, I may infact be dealing with 100-1000 “NORMAL” people that may be in demand for my product.

We are lucky to have the some of the best developers in the world doing some amazing things & giving some amazing support with DNN. It would be great to hear some other peoples opions on this topic (module devolopers, skin designers, project managers/middlemen etc..) as I am sure we all have the same goal – developing great websites & funcionality for other people.

 By Lance Long on Thursday, January 10, 2008 at 12:46 PM

Business 101: supply and demand.

No one is controlling the prices on Marketplace or Snowcovered and no one should. It's caveat emptor and developers with sufficient volume, features, price and support will survive.

At 20k per CS project, you will not get the volume to make even a $400 module economically plausible without a $2000 support add-on.

If you don't have the skills to get out of the basement making a $100 module (incidentally, about the price of MS Word), then the gal that can will gladly take your market share. The entire community will be the better for it.

 By Will Sugg on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 at 8:47 AM

I have bought dozens of DNN modules and the quality can vary widely. I have learned the hard way: if the vendor is new, has a lame or 404 demo site, no reviews, etc. fuggitaboutit!

Essential for me is the ability to thoroughly test a module to see if it meets my needs. In some cases this can be seen through a demo site but it is preferable if you can install it on the site and really put it through the paces.

I thiink all developers need a standard that would help them and end user's alike: a demo version of the software that will function for a given amount of time or lacks some critical functionality (like has limit on number emails it can send), or has some 'cripple' message it displays, etc. Then you can pay for it and get a key to unlock it if you like it.

Also, there needs to be a way for developers to tell if their modules are being used on multiple installations so they can recoup their investment, or a subscription service that will allow 'enterprise' installation and support for one year, point upgrades, whatever.

I guess my point is that as someone who builds and runs a site, you are establishing a relationship with the developer for a critical part of that project. Whether it costs $30 for $150 does not really matter from that standpoint (especially when you are passing along those costs to the client anyway).

It is much less 'expensive' to have a solid relationship and a solid product in the long run.

thanks,

Will

 By Tom Kraak on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 at 9:48 AM

Those are all good points Will. Over and over I wonder why not more module developers offer a trial or demo version that I can test locally. Yes, it takes more effort, but I believe it would translate into more sales especially on "higher end" modules.

 By Bruce Chapman on Thursday, March 20, 2008 at 9:59 PM

An interesting discussion, and one I have grappled with as a relatively new seller of modules. I often wondered how people were making enough money to justify selling modules for $30-40. In a lot of cases, there isn't a real business behind it, just a person with a day job who is making a little money on the side for kicks. But for people like me who are treating it as a full-time business, I don't see the volume possible to make a business out of it.

I've asked a few prospective customers how much they think a module is worth, and the answer invariably comes in at less than $50. There's two factors at work here - the ridiculously low price of mass market consumer software (Ms Word for $100 et al) and the 'Free' nature of DNN. The types of people who are attracted to DNN usually want to build something for as little as possible, and I understand that.

On the enterprise software front - my last 'day' job was working for a financial company, trying to rescue a typical overblown, months late, buggy website for them to take applications over the internet. I managed a team of talented developers who had built the backend of the system, all accessible via web services/.net remoting. This was on time and worked well. The 'front end' was a website that had (a) user authentication (b) data collection forms and (c) some document management (the web services generated PDF's a lot of the time, in the guise of application forms). The front end was outsourced to a company who turned out to be a mate of the CIO's. Anyway, this front end cost 10's of thousands and when delivered, didn't work, crashed and caused the usual 'failed project' headhunting and search for the guilty. Before I left to wade out on my own, I commissioned a small research project with a couple of developers to throw away the pricey and non-functional front end and replace it with a DNN install with some custom modules to call the webservices. We estimated a short amount of time to get a working proof-of-concept. It was rejected, and one of the main reasons given was 'we don't use free software here'. I wished them well and walked out the door, knowing full well that many more thousands would be wasted trying to solve a simple problem. I know this to be true from being in contact with my former colleagues.

It's this type of thinking that will dog DNN from gaining traction in a lot of commercial installations, but I'm sure the new DNN support will counter it. However, as module developers, those that are doing it as a full-time, everything-on-the-line business need to start charging properly.

With my new modules, I'll be charging higher prices, if anything, to set me apart from the after-hours tinkerers. The software I write is intended for people taking internet sites seriously, in many cases for people trying to make money, and I feel that they have no problem paying more for a quality module, with quality backup and support. I also provide per-portal licensing, and, while some people think that's unfair, given I 'only wrote it once', those with more than one website invariably are in the website business to make money. I provide free, full featured trial versions with nagware, so I'm comfortable on letting the modules sell on their merits.

Bottom line : I agree - Module suppliers should have the confidence to charge more if they feel their product is worth it. A thriving 3rd-party module market is crucial for the long-term prognosis of DNN, and if you can't make a living from it, a lot of developers are going to drop out, or, as your say, stay stuck in their basements with low-quality products.

 By Evan Camilleri on Friday, June 06, 2008 at 4:25 AM

There are lots of 'cheap' products out there but lots of 'good' ones too. Support is not always good. I think that if not an increase in module price, there should be a culture of paying for support. If the developer makes profit, then the product may become better. I saw lots of 'good' products but in the end to do thing you need lots of workarounds. The developers getting these rates cannot afford to re-design and appoint more developers on the project!

 By brnijeff on Friday, June 06, 2008 at 5:50 AM

Great point Evan. I come from the CAD & CAE engineering software market, and all products are sold with yearly maintenance contracts. This is accepted as the norm in that culture.